Sea Dragons And Second Chances with Matthew Myerscough

Can searching the rocks for sea dragons bring you back from the worst day of your life? In this week's episode I swap the underground for the shoreline with fossil hunter Matthew Myerscough, whose story starts with an avalanche on Yr Wyddfa and leads to the ancient seas of the Severn shores. Along the way we talk about Mary Anning and the two kinds of time travel, a plesiosaur paddle rescued from a Somerset boulder in fifteen pieces, and the fifty million dollar T. rex that sold at auction the very day we recorded.

For the first time ever, you can also watch this conversation on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Guests

Matthew Myerscough

@severn.sea.fossils

The Book

In Search of Sea Dragons: A Fossil Hunter's Odyssey - buy direct from Seren Books

@serenbooks

Links

Mudlarking by Lara Maiklem (affiliate link) - the book that inspired Matthew to write his own

National Museum Cardiff - new home of the Lavernock pliosaur jaw

Guided fossil walks for beginners:

Charmouth Heritage Coast Centre 

Fossilwise guided walks, Lyme Regis - https://www.fossilwise.com/

Whitby fossil hunting guide - https://www.visitwhitby.com/blog/great-tips-finding-whitby-fossils/

Wight Coast Fossils (Isle of Wight) - https://wightcoastfossils.co.uk/fossilwalks/

The Fossil Collecting Code - https://charmouth.org/chcc/the-fossil-collecting-code/

Next time: The Lost World with Richard Fallon - Wednesday 5th August

Transcript

Matthew 0:00

It was just this really steep section of mountain, and there was a kind of head wall section. And it was it was so banked up with snow and ice. And I remember I was you know, we had we had all the right kit, you know, ice axes and cumpons and everything. Um and I was clearing I was clearing the way with the ads of my axe, you know, m removing

Avalanche Cold Open

Matthew 0:20

the snow, digging a short space through the snow, um, so we could we could get get through this, you know, this deeper section. And and that's you know, and that's when I triggered this this avalanche, this really large avalanche. Um, which you know it carried us both smack down the face of the lights.

Roland 0:57

I'm your host, Roland Squire. In today's episode, I'm talking to Matthew Myerskoff about his incredible book, In Search of Sea Dragons, a fossil hunter's oddity. This season I'm charting the history of prehistoric fiction, and I also want to weave

Meet Matthew And His Book

Roland 1:17

in those non-fiction stories, like Matthew's book, as I think they are important. If you want to understand the whole picture, I want to know what it feels like to have a rock in front of you and break it open and discover something that was alive 200 million years ago. And also, how does one find themselves as a fossil hunter, or as the Victorians called them, fossilists? A word that I absolutely love. Matthew's story is incredible, and for the very first time on the show, you can actually watch my conversation with him on Apple Podcasts and on YouTube. This story starts with a life-changing event. So get ready to hold on tight. Hi Matthew, thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing?

Matthew 2:16

Hi, Roland. Yeah, I'm good, thanks. Yeah, thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Roland 2:20

That's great. I was wondering whether you could tell listeners a little bit about yourself and sort of what drew you to writing such a personal story as well. Alongside fossil hunting.

Matthew 2:31

Yeah, a bit about myself. So my background isn't actually in paleontology or fossils. You know, this is very much a hobby or a passion. So yeah, my my background is structural engineering, civil engineering. Oh wow, okay. So I've been doing, gosh, when did I join? Yeah, 2011. I joined the kind of small engineering firm I work for at the moment, small talk design firm, and we have a specialism in bridges. So my day job is very uh is it's quite different anyway, shall we say? So Cardiff is home or has been home for for the last sort of 10 years until until recently. You know, the fossil the fossil hunting, you know, I'm I'm a I'm very passionate about finding fossils and searching for ancient life. That's something that you know I've I've had a love, uh I've loved doing that since I was a child, and then got back into it in in later years, you know, in my adult life. And there's various things I think that kind of happened that sort of led me back into this childhood passion. And but I it was something that for a number of years I've really wanted to do was to write was to write this book. And I think I always felt that I needed this personal thread in the book. I kind of I guess I wanted it to be more than just about the fossils and the things I was finding. And I and I felt that I I read a I read a really wonderful book. Uh have you read Mudlarking? Um, absolutely wonderful book. And and Lara is so she's such an amazing person. And I I read that book. I I I suppose I was inspired to to do something um about the fossils. And I and I was, you know, I I was looking for similar sorts of books about fossils, and I found, you know, as as you as you'll know, there's a there's an amazing number of books out there, aren't there? You know, published about and and fossils and geology and all these sorts of things. And and but what I really wanted to read about was the um the experience, the actual experience of finding fossils, being on the beach. I suppose that's that's really where I I kind of felt, you know, this is this is what I'm gonna do. I want to write about what it means to me. And in doing so, I think I felt I needed that that personal that personal story, that thread throughout the book. I hope it's worked. Some people have been very kind to say it has.

Roland 5:00

So no, it has, and I think so I think you're right there, and I think what it does is it goes back to the tradition of fossilists, which is uh that fabulous word, Victorian word. Before kind of paleontology, there were people like Mary Anning, there's a Reverend Taggard who was on my beach at Beck's Hill here, and it's those people who go out and just discover things, and there's there's that there's that knowledge before the science bit comes in, there's the actual physicality of going into the rock and touching something and connecting with nature, but also the past and a very long-standing tr tradition. And I think that comes across very strongly in your in your book, which was fabulous.

Matthew 5:49

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Roland. You know, it's it's that it's my experience and what it meant to me being being now on the beach. And and like you say, you know, coming coming from a non for me, coming from a non-technical background in paleontology, you know, I was I was learning about these things as as I was finding them in you know, in some respects. And and I suppose that has its own magic as well to it. You know, I I find something and wouldn't immediately know what it was, even if after it had been cleaned or prepared. And and yeah, I think perhaps there's some magic or some joy in that as well. Having to go and work out, you know, maybe it was Dean Lomax or someone, I'd be pinging emails off to various people and what what's this? Can you can you help me with this? And yeah, I suppose that that side of it has you know, I I've been fortunate in some respects, uh, because I didn't really have that big bank of knowledge. Um you know, I'm not saying I do now, but I'm I'm certainly learning, learning a bit, yeah, as as as I'm as I'm collecting and finding things.

Roland 6:49

Yeah. Um I was wondering whether we could go to the start of the book and actually kind of what yeah. So it did did you just want to explain kind of the start of the book and how then this this journey unfolds this incredible story?

Matthew 7:02

Yes, thank you. Yeah, I should I should start at the beginning. I mean, the the first chapter, really, I guess a lot of people, if they perhaps if they didn't read, if they hadn't, you know, read the read the back of the book or or whatever, then

Snowdon Avalanche And Rescue

Matthew 7:15

that they might be kind of you know, that opening scene that they might be taken off guard really a bit because it, you know, what what's this got to do with fossil hunting? And the opening chapter really basically it is is an accident in the mountains. It was back in 2014, it was Valentine's weekend. You know, Ali and I, we were very early, it was really early days in our relationship, and we were just, you know, we were just starting we were a new couple basically, just started dating, and it was this romantic in my idea. We'll go to North Wales and we'll have a romantic weekend away. And we stayed in this fantastic old pub, the Penny Garrid Hotel. I don't know if you know it or you it's a wonderful, historic kind of uh mountaineering in right in the heart of the mountains. It was a training base for the Everest Ascent, successful Everest Ascent in 1953, and and various there's there's all this kind of stuff there, it's a really amazing place to visit anyway. And so we were staying there, and and in my younger years, used to do quite a bit of mountaineering, and that was something that came through from my father. You know, his his passion was climbing and mountaineering. And I'd done a lot with friends, you know, a lot of winter climbing as well, ice axes and crampons and and that sort of thing. So, you know, when Ali and I started dating, it was this, it was this natural progression that we were gonna, you know, she's she's a very outdoorsy person, and we were gonna share the mountains together. And so we we set off, you know, the Saturday morning that weekend, we set off to climb Snowdon. The we were on on the footpath, the pig track, which is many people will have will know it or climbed it. And it's it's a very rocky track, it's rugged, steep in places, there's smooth slabs of rock and short, scrambly sections. But it is a you know, it is a footpath. But that day there was a lot of snow on the mountain. And and looking back now with the knowledge you know that I have, I've definitely, you know, I was taking I was taking risks, and and I can say that now looking back. And and but anyway, so we we were on a section of the footpath where the track zigzags back and forth because the it gets so steep.

Roland 9:24

So how high are you at that at this point?

Matthew 9:27

Yeah, that's a really good question, actually. So we're we're we're pretty close to the top of the mountain. There's a section where yeah, it it it reaches a flatter kind of call or a flatter section between an adjacent peak and the summit of Snowdon. And so we were just approaching this this point, and we were probably only in good weather, maybe uh 20 minutes from the summit, you know. We were we were pretty close, but it was just this really steep section of mountain, and there was a kind of head wall section, and it was it was so banked up with snow and ice, and I remember I was you know, we had we had all the right kit, you know, ice axes and coupons and everything. And I was clearing, I was clearing the way with the ads of my axe, you know, removing the snow, digging a short space through the snow, you know, and that's when I triggered this this avalanche, this really large avalanche. Wow, which you know, it carried us both. It was about a thousand feet, we were swept down the face of the mountain, and I was completely buried under the snow. Ali remarkably it, you know, is a miracle. Really, she's she stayed on the surface. She was carried almost the same distance as me, but not quite. She was a little bit higher up the slope. And yeah, it was, you know, it was a I've spoken about it quite a bit and I've obviously written about it, but it was a it was a terrifying experience.

Roland 10:46

How how how how does it feel to how how was it at writing about that?

Matthew 10:50

It was really, really cathartic, and it it probably sounds like a cliche, but it just it just kind of came naturally to me to to ro to write that section. And I think it's been quite a hard reading for my family. You know, my mum said she was she was upset reading it, it was a difficult read and the family and stuff. And I never set out obviously to to upset anyone, but I just felt I needed to get yeah, I don't know, I needed to get that that story down.

Roland 11:15

Yeah, no, it's it's a really arresting like I I recommend anybody just picking up the book and just reading that first page, even first paragraph, and that will tell you a little bit about kind of not really the story to come, but the the the starting point of it.

Matthew 11:33

Yes. I think I think that's it. I think that you've hit the nail on the head, really, that that accident was really kind of the start, the starting point. It felt like the first thing, actually, in a series of things, really, that that kind of eventually led me away from the mountaineering and the climbing that I was doing quite a bit of at that point in my life, and then back into the into the fossils to a fairly well, fairly keen level, shall we say, as a as a fossil hunter. But but but you know, yeah, so I I was I was completely buried. But Ali and I both remember going off the edge of a of a of a small crag. And I've I've been back, we've been back there together and I've looked on the maps and I've worked out, you know, this you can, you know, you see the contours on the OS, on the ordinance survey maps and things like that. And I've had a look at where where where I think that small crag was. But I remember that feeling of kind of you know the fairground, the stomach lurch feeling you get when you drop suddenly on a on a roller coaster or something. And we both had that feeling as as we went off this the edge of this crag, basically. But we were cushioned by all of the snow that was moving with us. Yeah, and then coming to a rest. I mean, I this was a bit that I felt I really wanted to try and capture in in words as well. But it was just a feeling of complete surprise, which was and it and it shows how naive I was, because I never crossed my mind that that day, you know, we were gonna get caught in an avalanche. And it was just complete surprise when I was, you know, entombed in the snow, and I couldn't I describe it as like being encased in a block of concrete, you know. I couldn't even move the tips of my fingers, you know. You think, oh, you could probably dig dig your way out if you started with your hands and gradually make a void or something like that.

Roland 13:21

But was that was was that sort of thing going through your head while that was while you were in in in there?

Matthew 13:26

Yeah, when when I came to when I came to a a stop, which was so so quick anyway, but when I was when I was yeah, that I stopped moving basically, and I remember thinking, I really need to get out of here. This is this is not good. And I remember I remember thinking, yeah, if I can start with my hands and try and dig away, but honestly, I couldn't even move I couldn't even move the you know the tips of my fingers or or anything like that. So it was it it did feel quite desperate, and then that's when I had that kind of emotion of surprise and it was like ah this you know this is this is how it's gonna pan out for me, and it was so unexpected, and and then thankfully for me, I was I was I I you know I very quickly lost consciousness. Yeah, and Ali, I mean, absolutely amazing, stayed calm and you know, raised the alarm, she was shouting for help. And then there was a wonderful, a wonderful guy called Frenchie, who was a lot who has a lot of experience in the mountains, and he was nearby, and there were some other people as well nearby that that basically came came to our rescue. But he you know he stayed calm as well as Ali. You know, he was he was and he he sort of bounded down the slope and then managed to find yeah, I think it was the very top of my rucksack and started digging, and then I was still attached. And so so yeah, that's that's the first chapter of the book, really. Yeah. Start starting with that.

Roland 14:54

And what I get what I get from it is so that's your starting point, an incredible story, incredible rescue. Um and then the rest of the book almost feels like the recovery from that. Because you talk about this obsession with looking at avalanches, historical ones, reaching out to other mountaineers, and just this cycle of going through this again and again.

Speaker 3 15:22

Yeah.

Roland 15:23

And yeah, what what what was it that then triggered that kind of shift to fossil hunting and kind of rediscovering that thing that you had as a boy?

Matthew 15:34

I I talk about in the book kind of a period of difficult years after after the avalanche. And I think I was chatting to my dad about this the other day, and I felt I probably could have had a whole book's worth of stuff almost in between the avalanche and and some of the other stuff that came later. But

Aftermath, PTSD, And Changing Course

Matthew 15:54

you know, really, I think there was a series of other things as well that also happened. But I was doing things that uh I mean, I think looking back, I've I've probably you know had some level of you know PTSD. Um and if I was you know to have an accident like this now, I would almost certainly go about dealing with it in a different way afterwards. But at the time I I didn't really know you know what to do or to seek professional help or that sort of thing. And so I was kind of throwing myself into various different things at you know, quite a keen level. And one of the things was actually my my engineering work, and we did various projects, but I remember getting very, you know, very into project work and bridges and some of the projects we're doing to probably, you know, probably an unhealthy level. You know, I was doing stuff in the evenings, or I was doing stuff out of normal working hours when perhaps I didn't need to be doing. So I was doing things like that.

Roland 16:56

And then I kind of work-life balance of of everything completely went out the window.

Matthew 17:01

Exactly, yeah. And and looking back, I think I was probably just trying to I don't I don't know if I was trying to occupy my mind or prove that I was good at something, or this was some sort of I don't know, you know, trying to validate, you know, what I was doing. So I definitely did a lot of that. And then I did I did some other mountain stuff as well. And then we also had, and I don't talk about the there were a couple of trips that we had planned to go to the Himalaya as well, and neither of them materialized as well. The first one, like it was me and two other friends, and it was it was gonna be a kind of exploratory trip to the Indian Himalaya. Wow. Um and I I just we had a lot of it booked, and I to this day, I mean I'm still really good friends with Mike and James, and we meet up all the time and everything like that. But I do feel I let them down a bit because I've I kind of pulled out of that, I'd lost confidence. And then there was another trip, then the I think it was the following year that we had lined up, this time with a professional guide, and that was actually cancelled because the guide we were going to go with, or one of the guides in the group, was was actually killed in an avalanche in the Himalaya. So there was kind of this weird I I guess this this feeling of these things were happening in the mountain, you know, in the in this mountain kind of stuff that just started to really make me rethink all of it. But you know, there were some great successes as well, and I did um a really long traverse of the Welsh peaks, the Welsh 2,000 foot mountains to raise money for mountain rescue. Yeah. And that was, you know, have got some fond memories of that trip and I look back with with pride on that.

Roland 18:45

What I look so how the book is broken down is to actually then you go to the various different sites, and it's yes, it's almost like this step-by-step little snapshot of you finding larger or more you kind of paint this the picture of the place that you're in. Yes, but each chapter is its own self-contained thing, a good story, yes. Um and that feels very meditative in it in the way that it's written after the explosion of the of the start, and then it's that rebuild that that happens through through the rest of the book, which I think is just fabulous.

Matthew 19:24

Thank you. Yeah, I I I really appreciate that. I mean, I think and and to add to that as well, I wanted to start, you know, hopefully with the with the fossil stuff anyway, with the small things. You know, I wasn't and I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm an expert now because I'm not, but you know, the the quality of the fossils I've been finding has definitely kind of increased as I've gained experience, you know, as as you would expect. But I wanted to have the full sort of picture or journey with the fossil stuff, you know, starting off with I know I had the that we had this scapula, the the sort of scapula Atlantic Major, which was a great find, but then after that, you know, there was a long, long time of just small bits and pieces of fragments of fossils, you know, there was there was a long time of that really. So I kind of wanted to to include all of that stuff as well.

Roland 20:14

Did did did it feel because you were starting from essentially scratch again?

Matthew 20:18

Yes.

Roland 20:19

And you can't have any control of what you go out to do. So I suppose in mountaineering, but tell me if I'm completely wrong in this, but it there is a conquering element to it where you sort of feel like you can not having not done it at all, but but I've done like long walks and like ways and stuff like that, and you feel like I so this is the part of that walk, and I'll get to that bit, and then I'll have done the whole way. Yes, and you get to that completion point. And whereas for fossil hunting, it comes across in your book as if it's you can go out with all these grand ideas of what you might find on the beach, but it's up to nature actually whether it reveals any of its secrets to you.

Matthew 21:00

Yes, yeah. I think absolutely, you know, like just you know, you plant you plan your mountain walk or your long walk or whatever, and you generally speaking, unless you're unlucky, you go out and you do it, don't you? And you have that satisfaction of reaching the summit or completing your walk or your bike ride or whatever it is. But like you say, with the with the fossil collecting, it's so uncertain, isn't it? You know, there's so much chance and luck involved, I think. And I I really I love that element of it.

Roland 21:30

You know, yeah, it it it comes across in your book that that's that's part of it. That's part of the enjoyment is actually not finding something sometimes.

Matthew 21:37

Yes, yeah, especially now. I think in my early days, I was very I was very I was very focused on you know making the finds and things like that. But now I'm definitely much more relaxed, uh, you know, coming home empty handed and much more accepting of, you know, well, that's just what that day is gonna be. And maybe that's a a healthier place to be. Yeah.

Roland 22:00

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Part of this series of what I'm looking at at the moment is the Ichthyosaur, Plesiosaur. I don't know whether you've read Journey to the Center of the Earth. A long time ago, yeah. Yes. Not not for many years. But but but part of that is that big battle between those two animals. Yeah. And I wondered, there's an amazing bit

Imagining Jurassic Seas And Sea Dragons

Roland 22:23

in your book where you talk about actually setting the scene of the the the world at which the Ichthyosaur and the Plesiosaur live in. And I wonder whether you could just take us through the world of the is it the Jurassic Seas?

Matthew 22:35

Yeah, I really I really tried to read up about this. And I I I it's something that I want to learn more about as well. But I was I wanted to try and paint this picture of, you know, if we if we re-round the clock, I don't know, 200 million years ago, or you know, what what did these beaches look like? You know, what was this, what was this landscape, you know, in South Wales. And I think, you know, I think South Wales, that that area where, you know, I've been collecting on the beaches of Somerset and South Wales quite a lot, also, you know, North Yorkshire. But if we think about South Wales, you know, I think we had at times anyway, in in the early Jurassic, shall we say, you know, we had there were obvious obviously the the you know the Jurassic, there's there's millions and millions of years and there were there were huge changes throughout that time, as as people have pointed out to me. But I was focusing on, you know, this warm, a warm, fairly shallow continental sea, you know, that was teeming with all these kind of strange, unusual life forms. You know, we've got the the Ammonites with their you know beautiful coiled shells, and then we've got the squid-like bellum knites, and then and then of course ichtyosaurs, the plesiosaurs, and we've got a variety of different shapes and sizes with with both, haven't we? You know, the ichthyosaurs. I think recent research by Dean and other people have shown they can reach sizes up to 60, 60 feet, perhaps, you know, really, really quite massive animals. You know, the things I've been finding have been quite modest in size. And the plesiosaurs as well, you know, quite different body shapes, with you know, especially in terms of neck length and skull size and and things like that. And that specimen specimen I found at Lavanock Point, you know, that was quite an interesting animal because it had quite a long neck, but it also had quite a big skull. And then you had the kind of prehistoric sharks. And then and then I guess on the sea, on the seafloor, you had all these unusual, you know, things like the devil's toenails, the chrysere, because we find those, well, we can find those in abundance, can't we?

Speaker 24:47

Yeah.

Matthew 24:47

I don't know if I don't know if you I so we have a fossil collection or you've got something.

Roland 24:51

No, so I have been so I I grew up in Devon um and used to go to Lime Regis a lot. Okay. So going along the Ammonite walk walkway, the pavement there. Yeah, and never finding anything, but always buying something from the shop. So that's so I I I'm a gentleman in the in the prop pro proper fashion, a gentleman fossil collector.

Matthew 25:11

Yes. I love it. That's awesome. You've you've you've built up a collection, it doesn't really matter. But yeah, so so things, things like, you know, um, yeah, various, I suppose, bivalves and and gastropods and these things. But for me, you know, the love was really the marine reptiles and the um it was the fascination. I I don't quite know why the ichthyosaurs and the physosaurs and you know, above above the ammonite, I know some collectors out there are particularly interested in you know in in ammonites, aren't they? You know, some some fossil collectors will focus on on ammonites or or even other things. But for me, it's always been the fascination has always been with these with these marine reptiles. So it's something it's something to do with I don't know, kind of a childhood fascination that maybe many of us have of like monsters, dinosaurs, yeah, otherworldly things with sharp teeth, big eyes, long necks lurking in the depths. I d I don't know, it's it's this it it is, it is.

Roland 26:19

I think you know, everybody listening to this will have that as well.

Matthew 26:22

Yeah, yeah.

Roland 26:23

And it's the tangibility of when you touch something that is not around anymore.

Matthew 26:28

Yes. And yet absolutely yeah, and yet undoubtedly was.

Roland 26:32

So and it was in a world where this thing could exist, and that is not the world that you're currently standing on the beach amongst. And it's that. It's the it's the it's the moment, and I think it's it it speaks to what is all through this season to kind of looking at the the the fiction side of it, and it's trying to make sense of it, uh a very human need to understand our place in the world and in time.

Matthew 27:00

Yes, absolutely. It's amazing, isn't it, to be you know, to stud somewhere and find something and then to think, you know, back 180 million years, you know, what how different this this place, you know, how different the world was. And and that it's that overlap though of of the same it's kind of like the same physical place, but it's separated by this huge gulf of time. It's it's mind-bowing. I can never I can never appreciate just how vast, you know, a s a number, you know, 180 million. I I always struggle, I think, to kind of comprehend just how how long that is, really.

Roland 27:37

And I think some people will will be like, oh well, I can't think about that length of time, and so therefore it doesn't mean much to them and or kind of they uh move out of that sort of I suppose child childlike fascination with it. But actually loads of people stay within that because they're just trying to make sense of that.

Matthew 27:57

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I I I just I just love it, and I you know find myself just kind of getting lost as I'm on the beach, trying to think back to that world, you know, that that time. It it's a wonderful thing to try and imagine, and it's a great way, you know, going back to the the avalanche and the other mounted stuff. It's a great way of kind of losing yourself from the from the um you know from from any whatever's on your mind, whether it's work or other things, you know. It's it's a great it's a great way I find anyway of of forgetting about should we say modern day modern day worries for a short period of time anyway. Yeah, yeah. It certainly certainly works for me.

Roland 28:38

And I also love in in the book, so uh with with fossil hunting, there is sort of two bits of time travel. You have the first where you go back, you know, to the time of when that animal was, and then you have the second bit where you actually think of people like Mary Anning.

Speaker 3 28:54

Yeah.

Roland 28:55

And that

From Mary Anning To Museum Protocols

Roland 28:56

bit of time travel.

Speaker 3 28:57

Yeah.

Roland 28:58

You you you talk a little bit about her in in the book. Was she on your mind while you were excavating these two marine reptiles?

Matthew 29:06

To some extent, yeah, a little bit. I mean, there are obviously others out there as well that pioneered, you know, but she was just such a remarkable person, wasn't she? And I think I do often wonder, you know, what was going through her mind as she found these things when, you know, we just knew, you know, we we just we just had uh we we didn't really know that much back then at all, did we? No. Um, you know, and to think when she was unearthing these these skeletons, it must have, you know, the magic we feel now when we find these things, can you imagine what it was like for her?

Roland 29:42

And and and you know, the beaches then must have been chopped full of stuff that just and it's the thing of you know, lots of people just coming across things, but it it takes somebody like Mary Anning to to go to extreme lengths actually, to to dig those things out of the rock and to have that sort of obsession and know that this thing is special. Yeah. And that's that's quite something. And she wasn't she wasn't from money, she wasn't from anything like that at all. She was somebody trying to make her way in the world, struck with a lot of tragedy in her family. Yes, and yet this this innate ability seemingly to just find fossils and incredible fossils at that.

Matthew 30:24

Yeah, yeah, amazing, amazing things she found. Yeah, what a remarkable, what a remarkable lady. You know, and and as you know, she's still inspiring so many people right through to this day, and and will, you know, undoubtedly will carry on doing so as well. But also, we're we're only uh I suppose a part way on this journey, aren't we? And you know, yeah, what what will we know in a hundred years' time and and two hundred years from now as well?

Roland 30:52

I know how how how how does that feel when you so you're you've your some of your find has been in the Cardiff National National Museum?

Matthew 31:01

The re the yeah, the big jaw from Lavanot, the Romaliosaur, that's it's actually with yeah, it's it's it's basically it's either there or on its way there. So it's it's been donated to the museum in Cardiff. So it's uh yeah, it's it's in it's in safe hands and it will be there very soon if it's not already there.

Roland 31:19

So so how does that feel having so you are yeah part of this long story of finding, you know, find f finding creatures like like that.

Matthew 31:29

It's a wonderful thing, you know, to be able to make a contribution like that. I think it is a it's a privilege to you know to be able to do that. And I've I'm I'm definitely of the opinion that if if there's anything I find that is of benefit to science, then I'm you know I'm keen to share it basically. It it can it can get a bit complicated, I suppose, with some of the kind of depending on where you are in the country, with rules and regulations about some things.

Roland 31:59

Yeah, you talk about that quite there's certain instances when you take a photo of something on the Facebook group, and then it's sort of we need the the proper protocols need to help like you need to delete the post from there. Tell tell me a little bit about that.

Matthew 32:13

Yeah, that was me being um yeah, a bit gung-ho, really, and and fight, yeah, find you know, finding something special. And it was in situ, and I very quickly uh I put it up on the South Wales Facebook group, uh the fossil collecting group there, and and you know, I was yeah, quickly told to basically delete that post, which I did. I've learnt my lesson there.

Roland 32:37

Um, Mary Anning didn't have to deal with Facebook. She had no worries about social media bluntness. That's that's like the what the the the lowest down on her worries that she needed, but at least she didn't have to deal with it.

Matthew 32:49

But yeah, that one that one was that was a wonderful, a wonderful discovery and a wonderful team effort to recover that. But but yeah, that was I mean, partly I was advised to delete it so that you know others didn't kind of collect it. Or maybe they wouldn't have done, but just to try and protect the fossil because it was in situ and we didn't want somebody else perhaps damaging it before it could be collected. But also because it was in situ, you know, it was part of the beach that we needed to collect it legally and get the right permissions, you know, from from the landowner. We needed permission from Natural Resources Wales as well. And we worked you know with the museum, with Cindy and and the team at the museum to to do everything and get everything done properly. So that you know, that was a really that was a really successful project. Um and you know, I am I'm absolutely thrilled and delighted that I believe there's you know a research paper being done on that fossil and it and it will be in the and and it'll be in the museum. So yeah, I'm definitely I'm definitely of the opinion that if there's anything I find, you know, that's of any value to science, then then I'm you know keen I'm keen for it to be studied and shared. And you know, if it needs to go to a museum, then then that's what I'll do. It's tricky. I don't know if you've seen the um the news about the uh T-Rex.

Roland 34:13

I did see that today, yeah.

Matthew 34:14

Um what are your thoughts? Yeah.

Roland 34:16

So so uh um I don't know how much has has it actually been sold yet?

Matthew 34:20

Yeah, I saw just uh maybe an hour ago or something, I think it's fifty million dollars. Fifty million dollars. Set a new record because I think it's more than the um Stegosaurus coming board that was.

Roland 34:29

Yeah.

Fossils, Money, And The T-Rex Sale

Roland 34:30

So for for anybody listening, there was a T-Rex that was put up for sale in New York today. It's kind of it was expected to make something like 22 million was sort of the the the base line, but they thought it would go over that. So 50 million is what it's it's where it's taken. Blimey. It's wild, isn't it? It is wild.

Matthew 34:50

And do do we know who actually has bought it? No, I don't I didn't see, I don't think they've revealed the buyer yet. I guess it will come out. I don't I don't know.

Roland 34:58

Yeah, it might do. You never know. I know Nicolas Cage and Leonardo DiCaprio have got a few, so maybe they're adding to their collection.

Matthew 35:05

Yes. Yeah. It's it's it's a really interesting area. I mean, I I yeah. I c I guess I can see I can see all all I think I can appreciate all sides of it. I don't know how you feel about it.

Roland 35:21

Yeah, actually I've got an interview coming up with Lucas Rapel, and he's writ he's written quite a lot about kind of capitalism and how how paleontology and money sort of has worked in the past and who gets to own certain things regardless of where they're they're found. So right, okay.

Matthew 35:41

So that'll be super interesting. We'll be interesting.

Roland 35:44

Yes, it taught me taught me a lot, I can tell you.

Matthew 35:47

Yes, yeah.

Roland 35:50

So what what was the best day fossil hunting for you? Kind of take us through what the day looked like and the kind of the end result of it.

Matthew 36:00

Yeah, that's a good one. There's some stuff that I would love to share with you in the future, so I will put that

A Perfect Find At Lilstock

Matthew 36:10

to one side for now, shall we say? And I'll tell you about intrigued, but yeah, later. Probably I've had some really great days. Maybe trying to trying to think now, maybe the uh I've got this uh beautiful Plesiosaur flipper which is fairly well articulated. It's got all the uh all the all the bones, most of the bones there in the in the paddle in the in the flipper in the correct place. There's a few that have been displaced. But it was a really epic find because I think it kind of it consolidated quite a lot of my skill. I felt that, yeah, I'd consolidated quite a lot of my skills in in collecting this fossil. And it was it was a I think it was a fairly rough day. It was Jan, it was definitely January, pretty monkey winter's day, and like made made the effort to you know to crawl out of bed and and get on my kit and get out on the beach when you know when the weather's pretty poor.

Speaker 3 37:07

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew 37:08

And then there were just a few bit, you know, it was a really big, really big boulder. This is this is Lilstock in Somerset, so there's no no one around. It's quite a long walk-in the way I went that day anyway. Yeah, it was a fairly long walk in with a heavy bag. And yeah, and there was just a few bits of bone visible, it's a really big boulder, a few bits of bone visible on one face. And I think maybe most sane people just wouldn't just perhaps wouldn't tackle something of that size. I I d I don't know, maybe uh maybe that's just my character, but it's a few bits of bone on on this one face, and what I always do now is I always check all the other sides of, you know, if I see a bit of fossilized bone, I'll always check the other s the other sides or faces of of a rock or a boulder. And so I went round the other sides of this block, and there's nothing on the two sides, but then on the opposite face, and it was honestly just maybe an inch above the shingle, you know, the line of the shingle in the beach, there were three small bones, three small rectangular bones, all in a row, you know, beautiful neat row. And that was really exciting because you know, I had this really big boulder and I had bones on one face, and then I had bones on the opposite face as well. And the bones on the opposite face, these three small rectangles, they were they looked articulated. It was it was a really, really exciting moment because I knew then that there was such potential for this this boulder basically. But the tide tide was coming in. I didn't I didn't I didn't have my big hammer with me either. So it was it was one of those where it's like I've got to leave it, take a load of photos. I'm talking about sort of looking photos looking up towards the cliff, trying to get okay. So you sort of can triangulate your position when when you're exactly because as you can imagine on some of these beaches, if you you know, even in a big boulder that may not turn over with with a few tides, it's still quite hard to relocate sometimes. So yeah, try and take loads and loads of photos to mark the location. It's always a game of when can I next get back? And it's you know, trying to book annual leave at very short notice with without annoying my bosses, you know. Can I rearrange some some work meetings or clear clear a day so I can, you know, and then the ties and and to some extent the weather, although I'll I'll do it whatever the weather, to be honest. But um, I think it was the following week, it was something like the next, it was a Saturday when I found it, and I think it was like the following Thursday. I can't remember exactly, but it was it was the next week, I'm sure. Right. Managed to get the day, probably probably made some excuse for his work. I can't remember. Booked a day's annual leave and got back down there with my big hammer, you know, talking about consolidating skills. The first was, you know, I've kind of learned now a bit, you know, what may be promising. And, you know, if you've got multiple bones, obviously visible on faces, then it's a really good sign. But the other thing I was going to say is my my friends Mike and Steve, who are long time fossil hunters, very, very experienced, real experts. They taught me how to how to split down these big rocks, basically. And there's a there's a kind of a there's a bit of a knack to it. And I'm not saying I've got it or I'm anywhere near as good as they are, but I'm definitely getting better at it. And it's sort of using the corner of a hammer to to work on the kind of brittle nature of the rock to really kind of yeah, to to to split it down. And and you know, I was I started attacking this boulder, shall we say, and splitting it down, and eventually it split and it split right through the paddle, but then I could see all of the bones on the cross section, and that was a really, you know, really exciting moment because then it's I had some idea, but you just never know, do you? It's like Christmas. It is, it's honestly it's more exciting than it's more exciting than Christmas for me. It's just like a real wow moment. And then this, so this paddle came off in about maybe it was 15 or 20 pieces, you know. Kind of, I'm there on the beach, finishing breaking it down, and then each individual piece will be wrapped in bubble wrap and and things like that. Well, all the smaller pieces will be bagged and labelled and use marker pens, and so it's quite methodical. It's not just kind of, I'm not just kind of butchering these blocks on the beach. So I'm quite methodical about it. Yeah. Split it down into pieces and then carefully carry it all back off the beach, lay it all out in the boot of the car, and then and then it and then there's a long, as you know, there's a long process of I I do the kind of jigsaw work, gluing it all back together, and then sometimes use the angle grinder to reduce the the rock, the overburden, either side of the bones. And then I take it to my friend Mike, who does the kind of the really skilled, the really detailed preparation work. And he's a he's amazing at that.

Roland 42:02

Incredible. And the the the pictures I love in your book, you know, they're thank you. Yes, they really do show yeah, that especially the cleanup operation of when you find something and then what you're presented with next. That's incredible.

Matthew 42:13

Yes, yeah, thank you. Yeah, and that's something you know I've learned through you know, a lot of a lot of help from friends, you know, Mike and Steve, I've mentioned with John and loads loads and loads of other people. So learning off the fossil collecting community. It's it's definitely something that I've not kind of come up with myself. You know, people have helped me and taught me a a lot about how to how to do these things.

Roland 42:36

What what I also love about the book is the fact that you it's a very solo story, and it seems to be for all fossil hunters. Yes. But there is a rich community that is surrounding it.

Matthew 42:49

Yeah.

Roland 42:49

So yeah, did you just want to talk a little bit about the the the community aspect?

Matthew 42:54

It's amazing. I mean, there's I've met the

Community Tips For Safe Fossil Hunting

Matthew 42:57

most wonderful people, you know, whether it's on the beach or online, you know, through the fossil collecting community. I found everyone to be so kind of friendly and welcoming. And just recently, actually at the um Lion Radio's Fossil Festival, just you know, met the most amazing people who are so kind of generous with their with their time and with their with their knowledge as well. And just I had various questions I wanted to badger people with, you know, and and there was everyone was just always really happy to kind of have a chat, you know, whether it was over a beer or coffee or whatever, and just explain things or teach me things. So I think you know, I hope one day I can I don't know, give give give back a little bit to to uh to anyone who's sort of just starting out and getting into fossil collecting because I've I've had so much help and support, and I think yeah, I I really feel that the community is is very friendly and and welcoming.

Roland 43:55

For example, somebody wants to get into fossil hunting, yeah. How how would you suggest has is there any top tips that you that you would be able to give them?

Matthew 44:04

Yeah definitely top tips. I mean I would say so I I started as you know in South Wales and I didn't really have any um I couldn't find any guided walks in in South Wales but I definitely recommend if you're just starting out in fossil hunting or you need to fossil hunting get getting booked on a guided walk. There are some really great options in you know the Jurassic Coast where you used to where you used to go obviously you know Lime Regis Charmouth all all down there on that section of coast also in North Yorkshire so Whitby the Whitby coastline there's some great options there as well for guided fossil hunting walk. You know you can go with experienced collectors with professionals and also the Isle of Wight and I'm sure there are other places as well around the UK. So if you get the chance to look onto a guided fossil hunting walk I think that's a really good place to start because you'll learn you'll obviously learn what to look out for on the beach you know sometimes those subtle clues or signs which otherwise might take quite a long time to get to learn. You know so you can you can definitely jump start your fossil collecting that way. But I think also really important that you'll learn about the health and safety stuff you know the obviously always go on a on a falling if you're on collecting in the coast always go on a falling tide stay away from the cliffs that was something that I put right at the front of my book and I felt had a if I was writing about fossil collecting I felt I had a responsibility to try and promote before anybody just picks up the hammer and starts running about the beach. Exactly yeah and actually when I was doing the talk in Cardiff the other day someone joked that I had this I had the page on health and safety immediately before the uh the avalanche chapter which which I thought was very funny. So but anyway that so that's something as well that you'll you know you'll learn on these kind of guided walks or or adventures with with a with a you know with with someone who has experience and then also you'll learn about kind of sustainable fossil collecting and fossil collecting codes of conduct and you know collecting loose things and leaving things it's situ and and that sort of thing. So it might sound obvious but I definitely I would recommend you know getting onto a guided fossil hunting walk. And then the other things you know for me I just probably to an obsessive level spent a lot of time looking at photos of fossils as found. You know and I okay yeah I trolled the internet you know looking at yeah and you you know you all places now Instagram Facebook the Facebook groups the regional Facebook fossil hunting groups are really good but I loved seeing pictures of what other people have found but what it looked like on the beach you know so what it looked like when they'd found it and especially for the marine reptiles I think some of that stuff is amazing because some of the stuff for example my friend John was finding you couldn't really see anything it was just like it might have been a big block of shale and you could just see some bumps and bulges and you'd think there's nothing visible there. And he he's got an amazing eye for finding these things and so I learned a lot from looking at photos of of what other people had found. And I found that really fascinating and exciting as well. So spent a lot of time actually doing that and then I always say you can't be spend time on the beach you know just if if you want to find really kind of exceptional fossils then I think you probably got to put the hours in to some extent right yeah you know spend time on the beach. But it's it's not it's not just a it's not all about the big finds is it the skulls or the paddles or whatever it is the big ammonites I guess just being out in nature being you know being on the beach having some time I don't know whether it was family whether it's with family or by yourself or friends or whatever then I think it's always just I don't know I think it's time well spent whether you find whether you find a fossil or not so I'm hoping that trying to come round to that a bit more now rather than you know the kind of ambition for the I don't know the big fossils and that sort of thing um if if that makes some sort of sense.

Roland 48:24

Yeah no it does. And it it does feel so start of this series I went down to my beach here in Bex Hill and we've got the footprints all across amazing and it is amazing just standing on something like that. And that was relatively easy just looking at the tide seeing when it's down and then just seeing if I could find them. And did you find them quite easily or was it

Mindfulness, Future Projects, And Where To Follow

Roland 48:45

a bit of hunting to do or a little bit of hunting yeah yeah but suddenly when when you see it you're like oh my god why have I why I just walked past it and you just so incredible yeah and yeah I just think it's you know I think if you're into anything like looking at the stars or something like that it's about connecting you to yourself and grounding yourself on on on on this planet and being part of a of of a bigger story really.

Matthew 49:11

Yes yeah absolutely yeah and and we're talking about time early weren't we in millions of years and I don't know it it kind of yeah it in in a kind of an uplifting way it kind of can give a sense of I don't know purpose in a way is like you know we're we're only here for this you know relatively short period of time let's let's make it count and you know have fun and do some do some good stuff and try some things I suppose I d I don't know amazing I sometimes I sometimes get that from it a little bit as well.

Roland 49:44

Well that's give something a shot you know and maybe the book you know who would have ever said I was going to write a book well I'll give it a go and see what happens and here I am doing my very first podcast which amazing I feel I feel um yeah I feel very uh honoured to be uh oh that's been great thank you very much it's been really fun I think I I was I was I was actually sat on the beach reading this the other day yeah and I was just looking at a rock and I was thinking it could be something in there yes and I and I felt like did you take it home no I thought I thought you know if if Matthew was here he'd probably be like right that's that's got something in there that that's got something else and I'm just like there's too many rocks which one do I go for? Yeah too much choice.

Matthew 50:26

Yeah there is yeah yeah yeah great so is is is is there anything that you're working on at the moment are you are you working on a follow-up for example um not writing as such but what I can't seem to stop doing is making notes so I have uh notes app on my phone that I just have lots of ideas or thoughts sometimes it's it might probably sound daft sometimes it's and actually this is what happened with with with sea dragons is sometimes it'd be a sentence or sometimes it would be an idea for a a paragraph or a chapter or a thought or something. So I don't really know these ideas or thoughts half of them or more probably a load of rubbish but I write them all down anyway. So I put all this stuff into my notes app and it's it's getting quite long shall we say so I would love to do I would love to do something else and I've got lots of ideas which I'm very excited about. But I also need a break. I also need a bit of a rest yeah you know I'm I'm doing my engineering work and yeah and and and also doing absolutely everything I can for this this book and this project I suppose and and future events and things. Yeah to answer the question yeah I'd l absolutely love to to do something else and I have got lots of ideas but we'll we'll just have to wait and see and I guess also nothing is nothing is guaranteed is it you know and I think I feel like I was really really lucky to get this this deal and Sarah and the publisher have been amazing but you know I I guess who knows who knows what the future holds. So just I suppose just trying to enjoy this this experience at the moment of this one.

Roland 52:06

Yeah definitely well it's it's it's a fantastic book. I really enjoyed it I think I think it's just so personal and I think anybody yeah I think even if you don't have an interest in fossil hunting yourself I think your story comes across so clearly that actually yeah I I'd recommend this to anybody and the sort of burnout attitudes you know that lots of people have no matter what no matter what their passion is you know to find something that is that gets them out their own head for a moment and back out into nature and just connecting a little bit with yeah the world around us I think is is is a tonic we all need. So yeah I think I think it very much does that as well.

Matthew 52:45

I'm so pleased you took took that from it because that's what I really wanted to try and put across. So uh you know that that idea of mindfulness and almost kind of like this almost like meditative state that I get into and I'm just looking at the the rocks and you know got the wind and the noise of the sea and all of that kind of stuff it's it's uh yeah.

Roland 53:07

Amazing. So how people how how how can people find you online if indeed you want them to?

Matthew 53:13

Yes yeah so yeah I've recently joined Instagram so I'm I'm doing my best but you know as we were saying earlier yeah it's it's a it's a big it's a big learning curve for me is is the the social media. I think I've always been very quiet even on Facebook you know I've never done a lot but I am trying now to do stuff on Instagram so my Instagram is seven seven sea fossils so seven as being you know the seven estuary so I I wanted something that kind of covered collecting in South Wales and the Somerset coast. I mean what that doesn't include really is is North Yorkshire which or or even Jurassic Coast in in Dorset anyway seven Seven Sea Fossils is is Instagram. It's good I like it.

Roland 54:00

Yeah thank you and so yeah so that's where I am yeah and I'll put all the links to to where to buy this book from from their own website. What what's the publisher called again? Seren Books. Seven books so I'll put I'll put the link to them to support them as well. And yeah I just like thank I'd just like to say thank you so much for for joining me it's been really fun and I hope thank you I hope it inspires lots of people to check all the health and safety first obviously and the codes and then book themselves on a fossiling tour.

Matthew 54:31

Yes and check your Avalanche forecast if you're going out in the mountains yeah yeah um Roland I've I just want to say thanks so much for having me but also for your support as well because I feel like on Instagram you've you've been a massive supporter of I'm really really grateful.

Roland 54:50

I when I when I saw the book come in do you know Robert McFarlane? Yes yeah what an amazing writer and it's that it and the mudlarking book it's that it's the personal aspect yeah I think that's what I think people who write is my critique of being but they it they they don't put enough of themselves in in books and and to not understand that that's actually why people want to read them. And I think you come across very clearly and as a very passionate person for fossil hunting in here but also just yourself outside of that you could you can quite clearly see who you are through this book which is great.

Matthew 55:28

Thank you yes I'm so I'm so pleased but I'm uh but like I say I'm so grateful for your your support because I feel like you've you know you've been a really big supporter on Instagram and everything so thank you so much.

Roland 55:39

Thank you very much what a story thank you so much to Matthew for his time his openness and sharing that story with us. And you can read more about it in his book and I highly recommend it to anybody who's got a passing interest in fossil hunting but also also somebody that loves personal stories. I mentioned it several times during that conversation but I think it is so important to say that this book is not just for people who are interested in fossil hunting. You will be interested in Matthew by reading this book. He put all of himself in here but truly a really great read and I'll post the links to how to buy it from SERIMBOX directly in the show notes for this episode. You can also find Matthew on Instagram at 7.c.fossils 7 is spelt S-E-V-E-R-N, as in the 7S tree now next time I'm taking a journey to South America with Richard Fallon and a very, very excitable Professor Challenger.

Richard Fallon 57:02

Challenger somehow managed to be the romantic kind of hero who is you know using science to forge Brave New Worlds but also the pencil pushing kind of dweeb that Conan Doyle obviously found rather disenchanting and he plays with both these things and it obviously works because it's held together with just this idea it's basically just an super intolerant man, both for good and bad.

Roland 57:23

Join me and Richard on Wednesday the 5th of August as we discuss Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World. I feel like I'm peeking far too soon. Remember to follow this podcast on Instagram at Jurassic Pirates Pod. You can also subscribe to this podcast and get my bonus monthly episode of Hey Roland where I just get to talk completely unscripted about the world of Jurassic and dinosaur media. But for now I'll just say please check your times get your hammer ready and remember to always follow the collecting code